Episode 4: Partner or Supplier — What Hydrogen Partnership Does Europe Need Between H2 Global and H2 Local?

00:00:03: The following edition of the Hydrogen Elevator is brought to you by the Smarter E. Europe,

00:00:09: Europe's largest

00:00:10: trade fair alliance for energy industry.

00:00:17: Moin and a very warm welcome.

00:00:27: the Hydrogen magazine.

00:00:34: I'm Jürgen Pfeiffer and once again a month, i take you as your hydrogen lift boy through a building that is being heavily renovated right now in which some of the tenants don't even know which floor they are standing on.

00:00:45: We want to change that little bit And if you wanna know more after this ride You read up in Hartzweil Germany's leading Hydrogen Magazine.

00:00:53: This episode today is a little special.

00:00:55: We are recording live from a transparent cube here in Hall B-One of the smarter Europe and what you hear on the back is not noise.

00:01:04: It's the strongly beating international heartbeat off the world biggest fair and renewable energies in Munich, todays topic has maximum political charge only sounds abstract to surface between H-Global & H-Local.

00:01:17: What partnership strategy does europe need?

00:01:20: And to answer that question thoroughly, I have two guests in the lift with me today who couldn't be more different.

00:01:26: That's why we fit together so well!

00:01:29: But more on this in a moment... ...I want start at number six dollars.

00:01:33: Six US Dollars per kilogram.

00:01:36: That is roughly what Green Hydrogen costs to produce even in good locations.

00:01:41: according to DNVs Energy Transition Outlook The dream of one dollar dessert kilo?

00:01:47: That is not today, that's the target for two thousand thirties and some other projections say no before two thousand fifty.

00:01:54: Meanwhile in Germany under the twenty thirty rules The European Resilience Alliance puts the delivered cost at around eleven euros a kilo against roughly six in Spain.

00:02:05: so logic still seems obvious produce where it's cheap and ship it to where its needed.

00:02:10: but there's a smaller twist that makes Todays conversation Really interesting, because as the latest DNV energy transition outlook published this spring puts it that cost advantage largely evaporates at a point of use.

00:02:24: The Middle East and North Africa do produce one to two dollars a kilo cheaper than Europe.

00:02:29: but once you add conversion shipping storage and reconversion dnv says That gap is and I quote Largely filled by the cost of logistics the desert bargain eaten up on the way To the factory gate.

00:02:43: And all of this happens against a brutal backdrop.

00:02:45: The Strait of Formus has been effectively closed since last February and it is still closed, perhaps reopened as we record this but anyway shows clearly enough.

00:02:55: energy security Is no longer a seminar topic?

00:02:58: It's a kitchen table topic.

00:03:00: so the question is not just local or global... ...it is what kind of partnerships keep Europe safe and supplied without trading or dependencies for the next.

00:03:10: that's right today in the hydrogen elevator.

00:03:14: My first guest did not come to Hydrogen as a chemist, but as a banker – ten years at Deutsche Bank once the youngest board member of its Italian group before he traded the trading floor for the desert!

00:03:25: For fifteen-years now he's been building The Bridge between North African and Middle Eastern Sun & European Industry.

00:03:31: He is CEO of DII Desert Energy and Chair of the MENA Hydrogen Alliance…the man the Gulf calls.

00:03:38: when it gets serious about molecules He doesn't do small talk, ask him who he is and will tell you straight-faced.

00:03:46: I climbed a lot of difficult mountains and survived.

00:03:48: I'm person with values so i never

00:03:51: compromise.".

00:03:53: And his bed not modest either – he's convinced hydrogen would become in words bigger than oil & gas combined!

00:04:00: Very warm welcome to the lift Cornelius Mattis.

00:04:02: Thankyou very much, really glad to be here

00:04:05: My pleasure, our pleasure If you like the diplomat of the hydrogen world, an engineer with a doctorate from Grenoble who started his career in steel at Arcelor-Mittal then spent two dollars at France's National Research Center.

00:04:18: The CEA first running its hydrogen and fuel cell lab than a division of one hundred eighty people.

00:04:25: today he is executive director of the IPHE – the International Partnership for Hydrogen & Fuel Sets which is a polite name plus European Commission to agree on how we even count the clean molecule.

00:04:42: Because without shared rules there is no global market, only twenty seven local ones.

00:04:47: A very warm welcome Dr.

00:04:48: Laurent Antony!

00:04:49: Thank you very much for The Nice Worlds.

00:04:51: Great to have you with us.

00:04:53: as always We open up this podcast with H-II Impulse from our editorial team of our cooperation partner Hatzvay at the Hydrelin magazine and This week the Hartzweil editors go right to the nerve of today's topic with some history.

00:05:08: Back in the two thousands, Desert Tech was a mostly German idea harness green energy for the world and deserts off Africa.

00:05:15: Today DII Desert Energy which grew out of desert tech includes companies from the MENA region And other continents.

00:05:22: The picture on the ground has shifted too.

00:05:24: German companies still provide key components for Nium, but in Oman projects are built by the Indian developer AXME with electrolyzers from China.

00:05:34: So the H-II editors impulse questions straight to you Cornelius does Germany's still play a role in green hydrogen from the desert?

00:05:41: Well, Neon Greenhydrogen is the world's largest.

00:05:46: that was effectively originated out of our group which made us kind of proud.

00:05:51: We hosted a first discussions in twenty seventeen when we said... ...we need to do something really bold.

00:05:56: and the project effectively is bold.

00:05:59: it's two thousand two hundred mega electrolyzer Which are as you rightly say delivered one hundred percent from Germany.

00:06:08: And well, there is a one thousand mega seven hundred megawatt wins.

00:06:11: There's solar.

00:06:12: that has also by the way ammonia tank delivered by company called Steiner from Germany.

00:06:17: so as many components and this is the world's largest.

00:06:21: it's the most important reference and Most of all It is due to be commissioned in the next few quarters.

00:06:26: So does ninety five percent complete?

00:06:29: I would say definitely for now.

00:06:32: Germany plays big role.

00:06:34: Europe in general plays a big role, but you shouldn't be complacent.

00:06:38: It is very important to defend this leadership and the world moves on very quickly.

00:06:43: Same question for you Laurent because it's your World One to open with you too.

00:06:48: according to latest DMV Outlook citing your own IPHA inventory there are new around thirty different hydrogen certification schemes in the world, thirty!

00:06:58: And still no harmonized global standard.

00:07:02: So is the real barrier to a global hydrogen market still the price, or that we cannot even agree on what clean molecules should be like?

00:07:11: I think at this second point as you are mentioning... The cost of course really is important.

00:07:17: But what really today, I would say slows down the market.

00:07:21: First we need to create that market is to ensure interoperability which means We need to agree not only on standards Not only on certification but first on terminology.

00:07:31: First we all have to speak the same language and thats why at IPHE we've developed this so-called certification one on paper, that first to understand each other we need to speak the same language.

00:07:42: So let's read use these words have a common understanding and then of course see about the definitions.

00:07:50: what does clean low emissions low carbon renewable hydrogen mean?

00:07:56: It can be different from one country to the other, and that's why we need really to work on this interability.

00:08:02: And as you mentioned in these latest reports... We are assessing twenty-one certification schemes plus seven support mechanisms ...and finally there is so many differences!

00:08:13: The more you're looking into details..the more different it is.

00:08:17: Have I got an idea about how much paper?

00:08:20: Yes but its not a problem of how much papers !

00:08:22: But the problem is really ..we have to agree on using the same words, what is common?

00:08:28: What's different and built in these commonalities.

00:08:31: And that why we need to see what are the common points agree with the common terminology... ...and then have not a unique approach.

00:08:40: because many people may say let us have one unique certification scheme.

00:08:45: That just dream!

00:08:48: Because I think certifications only here To ensure you're compliant with existing regulations.

00:08:54: but if the regulations are different you cannot have a common certification scheme.

00:08:58: that's why we need to see what is common and in particular one thing is common everyone relies on the carbon footprint of your hydrogen.

00:09:05: just

00:09:06: help me understand how could we possibly make this co two reduction scheme.

00:09:12: Being accounted to the different sectors and companies when they do that decarbonization work.

00:09:18: When they invest in the carbonized let's say cement industry whatever, when the end of The decarmonization process is only bilaterally respected And not a processing between?

00:09:31: How can we probably solve?

00:09:32: That because financial aspect and nobody will invest in technology if he doesn't get his fair share in accountability issues.

00:09:42: That's exactly so.

00:09:43: IPHE is only dealing with hydrogen, hydrogen narratives not with cement but... If you are using low emissions hydrogen I prefer to use the IEA wording.

00:09:52: it's Low Emissions Hydrogen.

00:09:54: we need to agree on a common calculator And that's why exactly IPHE i've proposed at work.

00:10:03: October-Nineteen started the work on their IPHE in January, and then with at least more than fifteen countries.

00:10:10: we had more than seventy meetings to agree upon a common methodology to quantify the greenhouse gas emissions for hydrogen regardless the primary energy used regardless production pathway.

00:10:20: It's not

00:10:20: from when you want speed, right?

00:10:22: It was a long lasting discussion exchange between governments but in twenty-twenty three we released the third version.

00:10:30: But IPHE is only government to govern partnership Not ruling anyone just providing recommendations.

00:10:36: and this paper has been used as a seed document for an ISO standard which had been published late this April.

00:10:42: so now We have one ISO standard where that you can use to have the same approach about system boundary, allocation and even we're including CAPEX emissions which are usually totally forgotten.

00:10:56: And then you may use it either as I would say a way to quantify for certification or at least to use it as a comparator, as the translator.

00:11:06: It has really been very important to be mentioned.

00:11:08: and ISO standard is voluntary technical standards which cannot overrule any existing regulations but this tool that you can compare with APALS when compared in trusted manner then you could build partnerships.

00:11:24: I think today maybe at one point we can discuss better than local versus local.

00:11:30: Is there difference between partner and supplier.

00:11:34: And we do not have to mix because if we mix, in Europe is mixing suppliers... ...and partners will just run the same dependency as today with Schwarz-Hilfurtz!

00:11:44: As the main question today between rearm and repower EU what's this strategic role of hydrogen for Europe?

00:11:50: Let set the polls off that debate clearly.

00:11:53: Ninety seconds each of you.

00:11:55: Cornelius perhaps your first because you are a global one in the room.

00:11:58: DII was built on simple powerful idea that the deserts of the world can power the industries in Europe.

00:12:04: In one sentence, why is important not a dependency but partnership?

00:12:08: Well it is to transfer technology from Europe to region which is Europe's opportunity.

00:12:16: this creates jobs great stability and people with profit, the pressure of migration will decrease.

00:12:25: And then on the other hand... ...the region would be a reliable supplier for Europe.. ..and this supply of low emission molecules or electrons will provide stable revenue source.

00:12:38: that's basically the whole concept.

00:12:40: The region is broad.

00:12:41: it has more than twenty countries so we're not getting dependent from European point-of-view On one supplier like Russia.

00:12:48: So its well diversified Resilience and it's such a stare at infrastructure is there like if for example gas pipelines, which can be converted.

00:12:57: So I think that's let's briefly it

00:12:59: Lauren the counter all perhaps also in one sentence.

00:13:02: In every country If every country writes its own rulebook.

00:13:05: does global hydrogen then even have as chance?

00:13:08: Yes i would say yes uh in a sense That we understand each other And that was really focusing on this common language.

00:13:21: understand each other.

00:13:22: If we put in place some harmonized standards or calculator, comparator then... We can create a global market.

00:13:32: because I think trade no everything can be traded.

00:13:35: you just have to agree about the price You want to buy it.

00:13:38: but we have to work on tradability of certified low emission hydrogen.

00:13:43: and that's why we need these common aspects that we understand each other, and then we can compare.

00:13:50: We can exchange...we can work together even if the rules are not totally the same at least in the beginning.

00:13:56: And let me maybe add one point.

00:13:58: You mentioned trade, Laurent?

00:13:59: It is very important that it's not only the trade of physical product hydrogen but also a virtual trade.

00:14:07: Because this could help really to kick-start market similar renewable electricity where you have virtual power purchase agreements and avoid unnecessary transport from start.

00:14:19: So I can react about what you are mentioning in this video.

00:14:23: Not at the beginning!

00:14:24: because we need to create trust, and...to create trust.

00:14:27: We need to ensure trustability that the molecule-the hydrogen molecule they have derivatives you are producing selling buying using is really low emissions.

00:14:38: And that's why as mentioned Europe many other countries are based on mass balancing.

00:14:43: So you have a physical link between the molecules You're producing and the molecules you are using?

00:14:49: This book can claim with no physical relation.

00:14:53: I'm not sure it's currently the right solution.

00:14:57: So that would say a position with many countries, so it is my personal position... ...that many countries are taking today.

00:15:03: Okay!

00:15:04: Understood your point.

00:15:05: Cornelius we started with the DNV study and i quoted saying the logistics eat the bargain conversion to ammonia shipping reconversion etc.

00:15:15: And suddenly desert hydrogen costs for german electrolyzers.

00:15:19: So be honest, with me.

00:15:21: Where exactly does the import case is still a winner?

00:15:25: And where isn't just a story we perhaps tell ourselves?

00:15:28: yeah well first of all The numbers absolute something like and this week six kilograms are sick security to high.

00:15:38: so we can go below three euros per kilogram today.

00:15:43: and Neon Green Hydrogen is there, so I think it's a relatively simple modeling.

00:15:48: More than sixty percent is obviously electricity as we all know And then you can model it at the cost of transport via various carriers that are well known.

00:16:01: On that question, there is first of all the today's situation.

00:16:05: That Europe I mentioned has eighty percent molecules and twenty percent electrons And most a vast majority of the eighty percent is simply imported.

00:16:14: So i think There Is A logical case to step-by-step replace these imports with low emission molecules.

00:16:22: that's all about, for security of supply.

00:16:25: But this is to partly work on todays situation and the question is from an economic point-of view.

00:16:33: so I think potential to produce domestically in Europe due to lack space first but also a lack of economics will be limited by definition to a certain degree.

00:16:46: And then if you combine economical factors, If we combine proximity existing infrastructure which can be reconverted like the existing gas pipelines with technology transfer The aim to create stability in the countries, I think these are many factors which contribute... ...to build a very strong case for this partnerships.

00:17:12: At least with the MENA region that is Europe's national neighbour.

00:17:16: But Hans Towne doesn't every molecule imported from the Mena region still has the risk of transport just...?

00:17:26: to mention Hormuz, still closed today.

00:17:30: And doesn't every shipping import come naturally with that kind of danger and fragility?

00:17:41: Not one of those points that are lingering on every partnership without having the secure level of transport.

00:17:51: I would say.

00:17:52: that's why, it is neither local nor global.

00:17:56: It's both of them and where you are speaking about dependency what is important to create partners in different regions of the world.

00:18:06: then you have diversification of supply with trusted partners as mentioned at beginning not suppliers but partners.

00:18:14: we can maybe deep dive a little bit into the difference between a supplier or partner but diversification Will then, I would say reduce your dependency and as mentioned with partner not with suppliers since you may create new dependencies.

00:18:29: Yeah well let me maybe explain that Hormuz is more or less only relevant for fossil molecules because on the green hydrogen this is almost not relevant in east coast of Saudi Arabia Because the Green Hydrogen is all the west coast which effectively at the Red Sea And Neon, by the way is close to Suez.

00:18:52: It's on board of Egypt.

00:18:54: so we are far away from Hormuz and also from around the Horn of Africa with Yemen And I will refer to North Africa also specifically countries like Morocco, Algeria and Egypt.

00:19:11: So they are much closer and obviously not affected by HOMOS very far from all of that.

00:19:16: so HOMO is just a wake-up call.

00:19:19: how fragile particularly the fossil value chains are in how dependent we on them really suffering all effects.

00:19:25: Laurent mentioned the trust.

00:19:29: When we talk about trust, it's also... ...the certificate issue because if a kilo of ammonia leaves Oman as green but arrives in Rotterdam perhaps not quite compliant everybody will probably lose the exporter and importer or climate.

00:19:48: how can you change that trouble?

00:19:51: In terms of compliance and certificates

00:19:55: As mentioned, certificates are here to ensure you're compliant with the local regulations.

00:20:03: So... To avoid I would say time blue is that you consume time because if you say producing a molecule in Oman and then ship it to Europe but they do not have the same regulation so there's no way to quantify greenhouse gas emissions for instance If we look at this specific attribute Then you'll need to exercise twice One in a month.

00:20:27: where maybe you can receive some subsidies depending on the local regulation, but to be recognized as your FNBO.

00:20:33: You need to follow the European Degraded Act and Directives to recognize their FNBO.

00:20:38: So to avoid this loss of time or money that's why it is important work with these mutable cognitions of certification schemes.

00:20:45: But here to avoid misunderstanding It not have one certification scheme.

00:20:50: but IPHE is promoting a modular approach.

00:20:53: Look what is common Work in this common act and look what is the impact on their tradability.

00:21:00: It's a low-impact, not high-impacts... And let us agree by understanding each other among governance.

00:21:08: how can we find consensus that these commonalities are bigger more numerous in order to facilitate tradeability of clean certified hydrogen?

00:21:21: So this is exactly I would say the topic for IPHE discussed together and sure we understand each other, agree or propose some common approaches like modular approach.

00:21:34: Like a digital product passport that you can trust the data transfer from the producer to the user and then see how we can all agree.

00:21:46: And this should facilitate tradability, and then the creation of a market?

00:21:50: A question for my understanding—and let's view the telescope around from global to local —from the desert model-to work.

00:21:59: Europe has to commit to buying I think roughly twenty years.

00:22:04: Brussels can barely commit to twenty months.

00:22:07: Why would any Gulf investor built a multi-billion dollar plant for Europe when Asia signs faster and asks fewer questions?

00:22:16: Yeah, well I think Asia obviously on blue is bit more relaxed.

00:22:21: And it's a little bit more keen.

00:22:24: Well i think this is for any long term agreement For renewable solar winds.

00:22:31: As longer the tenor as long at commitment The better.

00:22:34: the business case is simply a mathematical calculation.

00:22:39: So ten years, it's not so good.

00:22:42: Twenty years is super.

00:22:43: if you have thirty years that even much better and it simply improves your financial model.

00:22:48: A solid long-term agreement to make any of these projects bankable.

00:22:55: I don't know any golf investor that would just bet on whatever price in the future and sell it at a market, by the way which is not existing today.

00:23:04: so i think we all agree We need this commitment.

00:23:08: but the commitment comes indirectly good regulatory, pragmatic regulatory framework.

00:23:16: A stable continuous regulatory framework which investors trust that will not change in the future.

00:23:22: and then the off-takers will move because they know there needs to procure a certain number of low emission molecules for example as simple editors.

00:23:32: but unfortunately in practice implementation of that is very slow and very cumbersome, and very frustrating to us as well.

00:23:42: I clearly get the signals from all future producers in the Maina region.

00:23:47: they're extremely annoyed, extremely frustrated by lack of speed a lack of clarity at the lack of continuity form a European point-of-view for this framework which is the prerequisite.

00:23:59: Let me point those

00:24:03: two positions perhaps a little bit clearer.

00:24:06: Cornelius says partnership means importing the cheapest clean molecule, Laurent?

00:24:11: You say IPHE.

00:24:12: philosophy says partnership mean shared standards, share technology and value change.

00:24:17: so which is it?

00:24:19: Is partner as supplier or co-owner?

00:24:24: maybe

00:24:24: just to react fully agree with Cornelios

00:24:27: Which is bad because you don't disagree.

00:24:29: No, sometimes we can agree.

00:24:35: I

00:24:35: would agree to say that if your only based on the cheapest and easiest molecule to sell.

00:24:41: for sure Europe won't receive anyone.

00:24:43: they go Asia.

00:24:44: but If you think about this until We agree it has To be The most bankable And the Most predictable.

00:24:50: And that's why long-term commitment and to work on the demand, to have a long term commitment is very important.

00:24:57: That's also why we need to have long terms stable robust rules not change every two or three years.

00:25:03: We need create trust through long term commitments.

00:25:06: This for example what Japan does with this Halogen Society Promotion Act.

00:25:11: They are based in CFD but fifteen-year CFD contract plus ten additional years without CFD and taking into account that this is also very important the full supply chain from the producers up to consumers with all the geologistics players in the same project.

00:25:30: So you see, That's a nice example of how these long term commitments engaging the full Supply Chain can really Trigger a new real hydrogen markets.

00:25:40: We are riding toward the top floor.

00:25:41: So let's get concrete.

00:25:42: The title of this episode has a question and I want each of you to answer it What partnership strategy does Europe actually need?

00:25:49: To be resilient affordable, instilled climate credible?

00:25:52: not the diplomatic answer perhaps the real one.

00:25:55: Who wants to start?

00:25:56: well

00:25:57: i think From A gulf or lets say a main region.

00:26:01: point-of-view only mentioned is what is expected Is a firm commitment.

00:26:07: It's a commitment to implement certain framework, which effectively obliges the off-takers... ...to procure a certain amount of low emission and not full emission molecules.

00:26:21: I think this is very clear that it was needed as well.

00:26:24: And then there are also commitments like... complement infrastructure initiatives, because infrastructure like for example pipelines if you convert existing gas pipelines this will simply not happen without governments kind of a PPP model unit there.

00:26:44: And then I think also another element which is important government needs to support transfer and delivery of European technology in these countries was a very competitive ECA coverage, because being let's say competitive but having finance at all is very important to compete with other countries.

00:27:10: Last but not least I would say that European or for example German politics needs to be much more involved and active which a bolder vision to reach these partnerships.

00:27:24: So this is really a key engagement, it should be on top of the priority and if we look at how Europe can maintain its technological edge in certain technologies that's what needed.

00:27:36: It needs bold partnerships consistent execution.

00:27:42: And your view Laurent?

00:27:44: What partnership strategy does Europe need ?

00:27:48: As mentioned as IPHE I have many countries and I do not have to comment on any member's decision.

00:27:57: But i can just have a global vision, look what works or what could facilitate exchanges in common understanding And that is why we were focusing at the beginning of the difference between partners & suppliers.

00:28:11: If you want to create strong partnerships We need see other as a partner.

00:28:17: And that means we need to see the other as co-owners, not just partners or suppliers and for instance with exporting countries only to see it as an export dock.

00:28:32: No!

00:28:33: We have to see these as European as co owners where we create also... common technologies, or shared technologies but also shared standards to impose.

00:28:51: One has not imposed the rules for others.

00:28:53: we need to discuss together and another point is that there are some local benefits.

00:29:01: so it's very important And not only our technology as well as skills.

00:29:06: As Europe too I think But in any country We have to rely on winning hands

00:29:14: And to play

00:29:15: these hands.

00:29:17: Sorry, just technology.

00:29:18: for instance Europe regarding technology in the electrolyzer but in fuel cells and here we must say owing towards decade-long European Commission support for developing hydrogen technologies since the nineties Europe is very strong in technology.

00:29:34: so I think... But it's not

00:29:35: defining itself as a common market?

00:29:37: We have five hundred million consumers potential power in buying a global market and we are not defining ourselves.

00:29:51: We're not buying energy on the global basis as Europeans, we do it nationally.

00:29:59: We cannibalize France against Germany vice versa stuff like that.

00:30:05: if you stay so unaligned Isn't the partnership logically finished with partners like China who don't have a problem to cooperate differently, decide in very different process?

00:30:29: Don't we have... The problems that others will close partnerships first especially Africa.

00:30:37: Why do you say Europe has different rules regarding hydrogen?

00:30:41: There is one directive for renewables with a delegated act, and another what?

00:30:45: A delegated Act for low-carbon origin.

00:30:47: So there was the common definition of renewable and low carbon hydrogen And all European member states have to stick To these European directives and delegated acts so that we's a common rule For Europe.

00:31:00: Okay before you step out Of The Lift because We Have Just One Minute Left What Would Be If You Could Change A Single Thing Tomorrow?

00:31:09: One rule, one contract.

00:31:10: One decision to make Europe's hydrogen partnerships work?

00:31:13: What would it be, Cornelius ?

00:31:14: It will be a simplicity and bold commitment by Europe and the single countries that need to implement RAID-III to move ahead in a continuous way.

00:31:28: Laurent !

00:31:29: I'd say if we want to create a hydrogen market... ...we have to speak the same language and understand each other.

00:31:38: This is maybe the most important.

00:31:40: Let's understand each other and work together.

00:31:44: Cornelius Mattis, Lorne Antony thank you both for taking time in this ride on the hydrogen lift at a moment where the world already could be more in better order.

00:31:56: Thank you for still believing.

00:31:57: despite everything that makes ramp up so hard it keeps moving forward even in right direction.

00:32:04: Even if I hope, of course it's never a substitute for convincing strategy.

00:32:07: Hope is not a substitute or convincing strategy!

00:32:10: We have reached the top floor with this particular ride but the conversation doesn't end here and continues... ...I hope also within this podcast.

00:32:17: right after short summer break in September we are back and on your various headphones and devices enjoy this episode.

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00:33:01: And your host Jürgen Pfeiffer Don't forget to stay tuned for the hydrogen elevator online at h-two dot info or H two international dot com.

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